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Our guest today has the mission to help 100 million people feel fantastic by returning them to optimal health. That's a big one. He's The star of the BBC one show Doctor in the House. He has practiced medicine for over 20 years and he wants to help simplify health. I think he's done that with this book, How to make Disease Disappear. Here is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee.
Allan (1:57): Dr. Chatterjee, welcome to 40+ Fitness.
Dr. Chatterjee (2:00): Thank you so much for having me.
Allan (2:01): I am so happy to have Dr. Chatterjee here. His book is How to Make Disease Disappear. And the reason I really liked – and I know I say I really like a lot of books, and I really do. But this book is special because it puts a lot of medical stuff out on its ear a little bit, because it actually gives you the understanding that you can reverse a lot of the diseases that we’ve come to accept, like diabetes, and heart disease, and Alzheimer’s. There are some opportunities for us to basically reverse and in some cases potentially cure ourselves of these diseases, and hopefully through what’s in this book give people tools to make sure they don’t get these diseases going forward. Dr. Chatterjee, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. And again, I want to thank you for this book because it’s very actionable. It’s something that I think anyone can absorb and get a lot of benefit out of.
Dr. Chatterjee (2:57): Thanks for having me. I’m delighted to have the opportunity to share some of my ideas and my philosophy with your listeners because this really matters. You look around you, I can see it in the UK. But I was actually in the US last week and it’s even more noticeable when I’m in the US that people are struggling with their health. Whether it’s obesity, Type 2 Diabetes, mental health problems, the list is endless. And the reality is that the majority of them – not all of them, but the majority of them are related to the way that we are in some way living our collective modern lifestyles. I’m not putting blame on people. I’m not saying people are doing it to themselves. What I’m saying is that actually the modern world, the modern living environment for many of us, makes it very challenging for us to make healthy choices. My book really is to try and give people an actionable plan, a blueprint if you will, for how they can live well in the 21st century.
Allan (03:58): There’s a concept you bring up at the beginning of the book, and I really like this concept. When we go to the doctor and we think of going to the doctor, it puts a lot of that into question in my mind, because it makes sense to me what they’re doing is they’re looking at a symptom – like you have Eczema, so I’m going to give you a cortical steroid lotion or cream. Or you have depression, so I’m going to give you an antidepressant. So they’re basically saying symptom equals solution, but we’re a little bit more complex than an if/then statement. We’re a system. Can you talk about how we’re a connected system and how that works within your paradigm?
Dr. Chatterjee (04:41): I think that’s a great point. The underlying premise of the whole book is that we are interconnected. Every single system in the body influences another system. For far too long we’ve looked at these things in isolation. I’ve been a practicing MD now for nearly 20 years. I’ve seen tens of thousands of patients. Over my career I’ve really had to progress my understanding, because earlier on in my career I was using a lot of drugs. I was suppressing a lot of symptoms with medication. I’m not necessarily saying that that’s a problem. The problem is if we don’t also explain that there may be something that we can do to help get rid of the problem in the first place. And I think that comes down to the fact that the medical establishment has been set up in an era very different from the era that we’re living in today.
Fifty, sixty years ago, the bulk of what we saw as medical doctors was acute disease. Acute disease responded very well to this sort of approach. A little bit like you have a chest infection. A chest infection is the overgrowth of a bug in our lung. The doctor will usually give you an antibiotic, something basically to kill that bacteria. The bacteria goes away, the chest infection goes away, and you no longer have your problem. We’ve tried to apply that kind of thinking to these chronic, degenerative diseases such as Type 2 Diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. And the reality is that these things don’t respond very well to that single-bullet approach because many of these modern, chronic diseases have at their core lifestyle choices that people have made.
I have put those lifestyle choices into this four-pillar framework because health has become incredibly complicated. I think a lot of people out there sort of know what they should be doing but they’re not doing it. So why is that? My view is that we’ve got to simplify health. The core rules of good health haven’t really changed. They’re the same today as they were fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago. What has changed is the modern living environment. What I’ve really tried to do is to say, if you make small changes in these four key areas – food, movement, sleep, and relaxation – you get really big outcomes and really big benefits for your overall health. And this is the approach that I take with my patients.
I’ve done quite a few prime time documentaries on BBC, where I’ve used the same approach to help people get rid of diseases such as Type 2 Diabetes and Fibromyalgia, and even reducing weight by 70 lbs. So I’m very passionate that all the listeners who are listening to this podcast think about those four pillars and try to think about their own lives. Identify the pillar that needs the most work and start there. I think that’s how you get really quick, but also sustainable benefits.
A lot of patients that I see, their actual diet is pretty good. They’ve read a lot of blogs, they’ve made a lot of changes, and they come in to see me. They get frustrated. “Maybe I need to cut out this little bit of sugar here” or, “I go out with my friends on a Saturday and maybe I should just eat in every single day of the week.” And I think, “Hold on a minute. If we look at this four-pillar framework, your food choices are actually very, very good. What you need to do now is look at one of the other pillars.” Rather than trying to max out and get the very best and the most perfect diet that you can think of, I’m more about saying, “Your diet is good enough. You’ll get much more benefit by focusing on getting to sleep one hour earlier each night than you will trying to make a 5% improvement in your diet.” That’s how my approach plays out in reality for people.
Allan (08:41): You had a concept in the book, and you talked earlier about how people might not be recognizing the problem. I think one of the core concepts in your book – you call it “threshold effect”, is that there’s going to be a point when all of these different things that we’re not focusing on across the four different pillars – they’re added, they’re basically going to accumulate over time. So we see our friend and our friend is fine. They’re eating the same foods we are. We don’t know how well they’re sleeping, we don’t know how much they’re moving, and we don’t know how their stress level is relative to ours, but what we outwardly see from them is they’re living the same lifestyle we are. We don’t understand why we’ve gained 30 pounds and they have not. Can you talk a little bit about this threshold effect and how that actually is the point where we start to recognize a problem?
Dr. Chatterjee (9:34): Absolutely. I think this is a really key concept for people. This is the idea that as human beings, we’re incredibly resilient and our bodies can deal with quite a lot of stress before we start to show symptoms or signs of any disease. What I mean by that is, let’s say you were born in optimal health. And I guess we can’t make that assumption for everyone, but I think for most of us, we start off life in a pretty good place. We can deal with multiple insults. It could be a poor diet for five or ten years, it could be bullying at school, it could be the fact that we’ve sat on the couch a lot and not been very active since we’ve left college, and we’ve just started working and we just come back and sit on the sofa every day.
It could be the fact that we think that we can kill it really hard at work and actually stay up late watching Netflix every night and get by on four hours of sleep. But what we don’t realize is all of these things start to add up and accumulate. Just because you’re not showing symptoms, it doesn’t mean everything’s okay. And what tends to happen is that we’re getting closer and closer to our threshold with every new insult that we have to take. And then what happens is that something new happens. Let’s say we lose our job, or our girlfriend leaves us or something like that. That’s a stress onto the body and it tips you over your threshold. We often don’t think at that point, “That was the thing that got me ill; before then I was fine.” The point is, before then you weren’t fine. You were very, very close to your threshold, but that was the final piece that pushed you over.
It’s a little bit like if I’m in the room where I’m sitting now, if I try to juggle a ball, two balls, three balls, four balls, and if somebody lobs in a fifth ball, suddenly everything falls down. Back to the human body, especially with these chronic complaints that I’m seeing day in, day out in my practice, these things aren’t just down to one thing that someone’s perhaps not done to the best of their ability. This is a combination of lifestyle choices and factors over the years that have mounted up, and now it’s causing a problem. And when you get to that point, you almost have to start from scratch and rebuild everything.
A few years back I used to think nutrition was everything. I really did. And I maxed out with my nutrition, I used to do that with my patients. And it’s not that I think nutrition is unimportant, I just realized that it’s not everything for everyone. There are four core components of health that we have some large degree of control over – food and movement, sleep and relaxation. I passionately believe that when you actually take that rounded approach and do a few simple achievable things in each area, that’s when you get the long-term benefits. I don’t know if any of your previous guests have spoken about low carb diets at all. Has that come up on your show before?
Allan (12:25): Yeah. I spent a good portion of the year in ketosis, kind of seasonal ketosis. I don’t have any metabolic problems or any other issue that I think I should use it as a treatment. I just feel better when I am in a low carb, but I know that there are periods of time when I’m going to want to be with family, go ahead and have some beers with the guys while we’re watching football – that’s American football in this case, and there’s a season for that. So I go through that season as my feasting season, and after my feasting season ends with the New Year, I start working my way back into more of what I’ve called “famine” scenario.
And you talk about micro fast – it’s one of the things in there, but I look at what my ancestors would have gone through living in your part of the world – northern Europe. I’m not going to have access to tropical fruits for most of the year. In fact, in UK, unless it’s shipped in, you probably don’t have any tropical fruits. So just recognizing that my ancestry is from that part of the world. Tropical fruits and high sugar things are probably not something my body tolerates very well. And I find that if I can cut my sugars down relatively low, I do feel much better.
Dr. Chatterjee (13:44): Yeah, that’s incredible. Obviously you’re in tune with your own body and you’ve experimented and figured out what works for you. And that really isn’t a million miles away from what I’m trying to do with people with my book. It’s really to help show them how small changes can very quickly become new habits, and these new habits can become your health. Once you understand them, you can be empowered to make those choices. There’s nothing in the book where I’m telling somebody what to do, because that’s not really my approach as a doctor. I think if I told someone what to do, they might do it for a week or two weeks or three weeks, but then they’d get bored. What I’m trying to do is give them the science, give them some case studies and show them how that’s helped patients of mine, and then give them a choice.
So the way the book is structured is there are four pillars, so 25% of the book is on each different pillar of health – food, movement, sleep, and relaxation and relaxation. In each pillar there are five chapters, and each chapter is a suggestion. It’s not a prescription; it’s a suggestion. And four times five is 20. That means there are 20 suggestions in the book. I don’t expect anybody to do all 20. In fact, I think it’s going to be incredibly hard in the modern world to do 20. What I say is the majority of my patients need to do about two to three in each pillar. I think that takes the pressure off, because if one of the chapters, if one of the suggestions I’ve got doesn’t resonate with you and you think, “I can’t fit that into my life. That’s not really for me” – fine, don’t do it. I’m not trying to tell someone what to do. If that’s not going to work for you, fine. Move on to another one and find the recommendations and suggestions that you naturally resonate with and think, “Yeah, I can fit that into my life almost immediately.”
I think that’s what makes my approach slightly different. There’s not hard and fast rule. It’s very much about treating the reader like an adult and a partner and saying, “This is what’s going on. This is how some of my patients have been helped. What do you think? Is it worth a try?” The example I was going to bring up just before we went off on that low carb and you shared your experience with ketosis was, I’ve never been a huge fan of the term “low carb”, and the reason I’ve never been a fan of the term, even though I do use what would be considered that approach with some of my patients, particularly those with Type 2 Diabetes or insulin resistance, I think the quality of food very much determines a lot of its health benefits to the body.
Allan (16:13): Say that one more time please. I really want the listener to hear that statement because that is gold.
Dr. Chatterjee (16:21): I’m basically saying the quality of food is so, so important. If it was only about carbs, we have to be able to explain why in Okinawa in Japan they eat an 80% high carbohydrate diet, yet they don’t have Type 2 Diabetes and they don’t have all this degenerative disease that we get in the West. And one of the reasons is that the carbs they are having are very nourishing. It’s a lot of locally grown sweet potatoes that actually nourish our gut microbiome, which are the trillions of bugs that live inside us. So healthy microbiome often leads to positive health outcomes. The other thing we forget about sometimes is that those guys in Okinawa are also very well-slept, they’re physically active and they have low levels of stress, and they’ve got a very strong sense of community.
So it’s very hard to just look at their diet in isolation. I absolutely agree in the West, where we are under-slept, overstressed, physically inactive, and where we’re eating a lot of highly processed junk – a lot of it is highly processed carbs – there’s no question that what would be considered a low carb diet seems to have a really powerful benefit with so many people. But I speculate in my book, I try and take people through the science on both sides and say, could it be that there’s a particular role for this sort of low carb diet here in the West? In Okinawa, they actually find a way not to cross that threshold; another way. Does that make sense?
Allan (18:03): Yes.
Dr. Chatterjee (18:04): Health is a result of multiple things. I think looking at these four pillars, it’s a really great way to actually look at your own health. It’s not too big. You could easily make these six or seven or eight pillars, but the reason I chose four is I wanted this idea to take off and I want people to get their head around that. I’ve got an example of a patient who I saw recently, who had Type 2 Diabetes. And they had been reading blogs. In fact, they read one of my blogs on how a diet low in refined and processed carbohydrates can be helpful. And they have gone and changed their diet. Their blood sugar was getting better, but it had plateaued. He was a business executive. He was stressing out over his carbohydrate intake; he was pushing it further and further lower. He said, “I can’t understand why my blood sugar is not coming down any further.”
We used this four-pillar framework on him, and identified that he was highly stressed, he never had any time off, he’s a busy executive, and that stress was also leading to him not having good quality sleep. And I said to him, “I actually think it’s your stress levels and your lack of sleep that is keeping your blood sugar high, rather than your diet.” So I actually eased him off his diet. We increased the amount of carbohydrate he had. The refined and processed carbs were still low, but I increased the amount of carbohydrates he was having. We put into practice five minutes of meditation every day to help with the stress management. I said five minutes a day. I wasn’t talking about half an hour, crossed legs, saying “Ohm”, sitting in the corner. He had a one-hour wind down routine before bed, and we did a couple of other things around sleep and relaxation. And within four to six weeks his blood sugar started to drop back down to normal.
This is the point I’m trying to get across. We’ve become far too reductionist about health. Even in the lifestyle medicine movements, we are overly focused on one area. I genuinely feel that when you focus on all four areas, but you take the pressure off yourselves so you don’t need to be perfect – you don’t need the perfect diet or the perfect gym routine; you just need to do enough in each area – I think that’s where the magic happens.
Allan (20:24): In the book you had said something to the effect of, if they had two in one pillar in four in another pillar, they would do better to spend some time in the two pillars that they haven’t done any work in than to try to get to that fifth item in any of two pillars. I think a better math would have been to say the first one in a pillar gives you five points, the second one gives you four points, so there’s a diminishing return. Go to a different pillar – you’re going to get five points, versus the diminishing return you’d get staying in the same pillar. A good distribution process across all of these pillars is going to probably do you more good than trying to stay in one pillar.
Dr. Chatterjee (21:09): I think that’s a fantastic idea.
Allan (21:12): I’m an accountant by trade. It’s what I started out as, so when you give me a math problem and want me to gamify something, my head’s going to go there pretty quick.
Dr. Chatterjee (21:20): I think that’s a great idea. That really gets that concept across really well, that it’s about that balance. I’ll give you an example. The “Eat” pillar is the second pillar in the book, and I did that on purpose. I think a lot of people in the UK would have expected me to start with food. and I think relaxation and stress is very much undervalued in society, which is one of the reasons I started the book with that pillar. One of the recommendations I make in the “Eat” pillar is, if you have tried in the past to change what you eat unsuccessfully, perhaps you should start with changing when you eat. It’s this idea of, can you eat all of your food that you’re going to eat within a 12-hour window? That could be 7:00 in the morning until 7:00 in the evening or 8:00 in the morning till 8:00 in the evening. You can choose as to what fits your lifestyle.
A lot of this research comes from studies that Dr. Satchidananda Panda in San Diego has been doing at the Salk Institute. Lots of these so far have been done in animals, I do accept that; although human trials are underway in the early results are very, very promising. It’s this idea that actually if all you do is compress your eating window, and let’s be honest, 12 hours is doable for pretty much everyone; there are very few people that won’t eat all their food within a 12-hour eating window.
Allan (22:43): All it really means is if you get a good eight hours of sleep, which is one of the other pillars, then you’re only going to be awake for four hours that you’re not eating. So that can be two hours before you start eating, after you wake up, and two hours before you go to bed; or it can be you stop eating four hours before you go to bed. It’s just what fits your lifestyle, but that’s a very doable intermittent fasting window.
Dr. Chatterjee (23:12): It’s very doable, and we know that you can have lower levels of inflammation, better blood sugar control, improved immune system function, you can lose weight, improve your mitochondrial function. All kinds of things have been reported, benefits of this kind of intervention. Here’s the key for me. A lot of people say, “I can do the 12 hours, so can I get more benefit if I move that down to 10 hours?” Or move it down to eight hours or six hours. And here’s where my approach probably is slightly difference. I say some people can, there’s no question. But for me, if you can eat all your food within a 12-hour eating window, give yourself a tick and move on to another pillar or move on to another suggestion, because my approach isn’t about maxing out in one area.
I see this all the time. I see this on social media, I see this with many of my patients. If they’re into food for example, they want to go all in: “How much better can I make this? Can I fast for 16 hours a day? Can I make my diet 2%, 3%…?” Meanwhile, neglecting the fact that they only get four hours sleep a night, neglecting the fact they’re glued to their smartphone from 5:00 AM till 1:00 AM. My point is trying to say that is good enough for me. For most of my patients 12 hours seems to be good enough. I get it – some people will say, “When I make that smaller, when I make it an 8-hour eating window, I feel fantastic.” Of course, there’s always going to be that trial and error that we can do, but the primary focus of my approach is to say 12 hours is enough. Let’s focus on something else now and give you that really rounded 360 degree approach to health.
Allan (24:50): I’m working on a book myself, and one of the concepts I put in the book is a story of this professor who brings out these big rocks, these little rocks and the sand. And he tells the class that they can get all of that into this particular jar, and he tasks them with doing so. And they try several different ways. They can’t seem to get all the big rocks, little rocks and the sand in that jar. And he comes out and demonstrates by putting the big rocks in first, starting to put in the little rocks and shaking them to a point where they settle, and then putting the sand in and shaking it to a point it settles. You chain effect to get all of that in there, but it takes a methodology. The core of that methodology is to focus on the big rocks first.
As think about your four pillars, it’s like I might have a bigger rock in my relaxation / stress pillar than I have in my food pillar, because I’ve already done all the big rocks in my food. So moving onto the stress one and actually focusing on a big rock is going to give me a lot more benefit than trying to deal with the sand that I have left in the food area.
Dr. Chatterjee (25:58): Absolutely.
Allan (26:00): We’ve talked a little bit about food, as far as looking at an eating window, we’ve talked a little bit about stress from the perspective of your client that incorporated some things about his meditation. And you talked a little bit about him having a ritual beforehand of about an hour getting ready for sleep. Could you talk a little bit more about that one?
Dr. Chatterjee (26:24): Sure. Why do you start with sleep? There’s no question, we’re in the middle of a sleep deprivation epidemic. About a year ago, some scientists from Oxford University came out and said that they think we’re sleeping one to two hours less per night than we were 60 years ago. That’s incredible because in the context of an eight-hour sleep cycle, we may have lost up to 25% of our sleep. I think that’s absolutely incredible. When we think about what happens when we sleep and the potential benefits of having a good night’s sleep, we know in the short term we have better energy, better concentration, our relationships with those close to us and our work colleagues and much better. We crave better foods when we have slept well.
But long-term as well, we know that a lack of sleep is associated with pretty much every single chronic disease that we’ve got, whether it’s Type 2 Diabetes, obesity, even Alzheimer’s disease. Matthew Walker is one of the world’s premier sleep researchers recently, and he said there’s pretty compelling evidence that a lack of sleep may be causative for Alzheimer’s. If that’s true, it’s just incredible how much we undervalue sleep. The crux of the matter with sleep is that for the majority of people who are struggling with their sleep, they are doing something in their everyday lifestyle that they don’t realize is affecting their ability to sleep at night. I think it’s a really important point to hammer home. Yes, primary sleep disorders like obstructive sleep apnea do exist, there’s no question. But I’m saying that the majority of people who I see in my practice or when I go around the country in the UK speaking – the majority of people who want to improve their sleep can do so by changing various aspects of their lifestyle.
I mention something that I call in my book, the “No tech 90” – this idea that for 90 minutes before bed, can you switch off your modern tech? If 90 minutes is too much, start with 10 minutes. Build it to 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I’m not too prescriptive, but I think 90 minutes is a really good thing to aim for. And there are two reasons why that works so well. The first reason is because a lot of these electronic devices like smartphones and tablets emit a form of light called “blue light”. If you go out in nature, blue wavelength light is only really seen in the morning. So your body’s used to seeing it in the morning and we’re not really seeing it in the evening. What happens is if we’re looking at our devices in the evening, that blue light is sending a signal to your body that it’s daytime, and it can reduce quite dramatically levels of a hormone called Melatonin.
Melatonin is a sleep hormone. If we had a drug that was going to reduce the levels of your sleep hormone, Melatonin, there would be a huge alarm sign on it. In the side effect package it would say, “Please note, this changes your hormone levels.” Yet, the majority of the Western world at least are actually doing that every night by looking at these devices. So, blue light is one reason why these devices can have such a detrimental impact on our sleep, but the other reason is that if you’re scrolling Facebook or [inaudible], the emotional noise coming into your brain is just continuous.
Just as with your children, you don’t wind them up with scary stories and lots of sugar and bright lights in the hour before bed. You start to wind them down to create the right environment so that the body wants to switch off and relax. We as adults are no different. I’ve found that both for adults as well as children, actually switching off your tech an hour, an hour and a half before bed, can be incredibly helpful and helping you fall asleep. So that’s something you can do in the evening. But the other one, which is rather counterintuitive, and there’s a chapter in the book called Embrace Morning Light. That basically explains to people why if you’re struggling to sleep in the evening, often it’s because you’re not getting enough natural daylight in the morning.
And the reason is that we as humans have evolved to have a very big differential between our maximum light exposure and our least light exposure. So if you were to go outside on a sunny day for about 20 minutes or so, you’d probably be exposed to 30,000 lux of light. Lux is a unit of light. A dark green will be zero lux. Go outside on a bright sunny day and it’s about 30,000 lux. Even if you go outside on a cloudy overcast day, you’re still probably getting 10,000 to 15,000 lux. If you go into a brightly lit office, at most you’ll be getting 500, or even you might be getting up to 900 or 1,000 lux. But nothing compared to going outside. Here’s the points. If you, particularly in the depths of winter when it’s dark, depending on where in the world you live, a lot of people are spending the majority of their day indoor or in the dark. Your body is not getting that big differential between maximum light exposure and minimum light exposure.
So this book came out in the UK a few months ago, and the feedback I’m getting from people is just incredible. Some people are saying that they’ve not slept this well for 20, 30 years just by applying some of the tips that I talk about, and one of those is getting outside in the morning. One of the things you alluded to at the start is that this book and my approach is full of practical tips, because I didn’t want to just write a book where people read it and go, “That sounds great in theory.” I wanted to write something that people feel as they’re reading it, “I could do that straight away.” The tips that I put in the book have literally come from 17 years of seeing patients; not only what the science says, also what the patients report back, what actually works in real life, with busy people with busy lives. And that’s the core thing for me – I try to make all these things achievable. So the Embrace Morning Light chapter, I say, “Can you make a habit – every morning you’re going to get out for 10, 15 minutes, ideally half an hour? Can you build in a morning, breaks at your work, even at lunchtime, the first thing you do is go outside for 20, 30-minute walk, just to get you that light exposure?” These things work, and are not as hard as people think.
Allan (32:57): Yeah, and I think that’s why I really liked this book. Across all four pillars, these are reasonable, actionable steps, and they're fairly simple. Obviously someone can do more after they feel like they’ve gotten good coverage across the four, but if they do the four, then they’re really getting themselves away from that threshold we talked about and they’re pulling themselves back into understanding that this is a system – a system of movement, a system of sleep, a system of stress reduction, and a system of eating the right things to fuel your body. And as a result, all that pulls you together to be more healthy, and as you put it, make disease disappear. Dr. Chatterjee, if someone wanted to get in touch with you to learn more about the book, learn more about what you’re doing, where would you like for me to send them?
Dr. Chatterjee (33:47): There are lots of resources on my website DrChatterjee.com. If you guys go to DrChatterjee.com/book, there are all kinds of resources and blogs relating to the book, including something called The Five-Minute Kitchen Workout, which is one of the big hits from the book, which I encourage you to check out. You can actually find a very quick and easy way that you can start to incorporate strength training into your everyday life that doesn’t cost any money or require you to join a gym. So I’d probably point you there. If you’re on social media, I’m very active on Facebook and Instagram and the handle is @DrChatterjee. And on Twitter it’s @DrChatterjeeUK. Those are probably the best places to find me.
Allan (34:28): Outstanding. So you can go to 40plusfitnesspodcast.com/320. This is episode 320, so go to 40plusfitnesspodcast.com/320 and I’ll have all the links there. So again, Dr. Chatterjee, thank you so much for being a part of 40+ Fitness.
Dr. Chatterjee (34:47): Thank you. Really appreciate you having the time to get me on. Thank you.